FIRST CONFERENCE IN A SERIES FEATURING INVESTIGATIVE EXPERTS IN SPECIFIC SPECIALTIES ....

C.O.I.N. MODERATED CONFERENCE JULY 20, 1995 9PM CDT

Moderator: Nate Lenow, PI Sysop, Computer Online Investigator's Network located in a private area of the CompuServe Information Service. Sysop address 76702,1721 or via internet at 76702.1721@compuserve.com

Speaker: Norman I. Perle, National Audio/Video Forensic Laboratory, 8357 Shirley Avenue, Northridge, CA 91324-4146. CompuServe address 71601,771 or via internet at 71601.771@compuserve.com Voice 818-989-0990. FAX 818-993-8550

Nate Lenow: Our speaker tonite will be Norman Perle of the National Audio/Video Laboratory. Norm has provided expert testimony in a number of high profile trials. Some of those being the Rodney King trial and the Damian Williams (LA Riot) trial.

I'll ask a couple of questions and then we will open the floor. If you have a question type a ?, a comment type !. I will recognize you and then proceed with your question.

Norm, this is something I always wanted to ask you, how did you get into this type of forensic work?

Norman Perle: My background was in BUGGING/DE-BUGGING, trained by a former Electronic Section Chief for the D.E.A. Seemed a natural transition to covert tapes to analysis.

Nate Lenow: At one time you were doing regular PI work is that correct?

Norman Perle: Actually started chasing HEIRS for a national company. Then got my hours in Calif, and qualified to starve for a couple of years. Then the light came through about specialization.

Nate Lenow: OK how many years have you been doing this type of forensic work?

Norman Perle: As I look back, gee...I specialized in FORENSIC/LEGAL photography for a time, 20 years ago ... then it was DeBugging and then it was FORENSIC ANALYSIS for covert tapes.

Nate Lenow: I know you worked on the Rodney King case and the LA Riot Case of Damian Williams, but what was your favorite case?

Norman Perle: Yes....this is one of those things in a different area I can't express to you how thrilled I was to have the tape and enhancement business grow so much, but the video image enhancement business came in like a and is still a major increasing factor in my business its VERY exciting!! Honest to G..there's a new story every ... Favorite case... It has to be the current big news case I just sent you a short story on it....Man jailed for 4 years. innocent! Police tampered the tape. D.A. DROPPED THE CHARGES last week!!

Norman Perle: Four years of his life gone.

Nate Lenow: Let's open it up for questions now.

Nate Lenow: Norm elaborate on that case it sounds interesting.

Bob Taylor: That's got to be a great feeling

Norman Perle: It's better than that...it's a landmark thing..I'm in the business 20 years and this is the first time it happened the way it should...it's a real rush.

Nate Lenow: What was your findings in that case?

Norman Perle: I had an evidence recording - recorded two sides - there were 21 specific things wrong with the copy - Court "ORIGINAL The "ORIGINAL" turned out to be AN EDITED COPY. with a 2.5+ minute ERASURE at a critical point Just another falsified tape case....ho ho!! You might be interested to know that a Forensic Analysis will determine if a tape is an ORIGINAL. It will determine if the recording starts at the beginning stops at the end with no inappropriate stops/restarts in the recording.

Norman Perle: It can tell if it was Virgin Tape...erased, over-recorded, computer...etc.

Bob Taylor: Does it matter if one reuses a tape; ie tapes over another?

Norman Perle: Answer. NO

Norman Perle: The mechanism of a recorder erases the prior signal before it is recorded.

Nate Lenow: Norm, what is the best way to store tape that may be used later as evidence?

Norman Perle: GOOD ? - First : break out the RECORD SAFETY TABS!!!. Mark the tape on the face/label with date/time/case info put it in the plastic cassette holder. and KEEP IT AWAY FROM ANYTHING ELECTRICAL or MAGNETIC.

Norman Perle: Store it where the temperature does not get extreme. You may have to testify about how it was, and where it was.

Bernie Hughes: Norm, what % of ur work is crim/civil. Plaintiff/Deft?

Norman Perle: Realistically, 70% criminal. Civil cases usually do not use recorded evidence ... generally.

Bob Taylor: Is it O.K. to use one of those magnetic erasures to clean off previous recordings.

Norman Perle: By the way the best erasures are the electronic BULK ERASURES. The pass through devices are NOT effective!

Norman Perle: But, you know, the COVERT was to screw up a tape would be magnet to the case!!!

Bernie Hughes: How 'bout erasing video tapes for reuse, Norm?

Norman Perle: The same BULK ERASER (Radio Shack for about $35.) works. It has a handle, and a little switch with a light, makes a rescrambles the magnetic particles very effectively.

Bob Taylor: Does that render a "virgin" tape?

Norman Perle: I use the Radio Shack #44-233A model... in a realistic. way, it does, but in a technical way...one can tell it was erased!

Nate Lenow: Norm, what about metal cassette tapes in that . I tried to record over one with some music and the original voice recording stayed there?

Norman Perle: I don't know anyone that uses METAL PARTICLE tapes for they usually use them for video...they leave alot of and are abrasive...no advantage.

Nate Lenow: Can you erase them?

Norman Perle: Sure. the medium of recording. still uses a magnetic field which is affected by magnetic polarization.

Bernie Hughes: Ever do any work up northern CA?

Norman Perle: Yes. but the reality of my business is. that most assignments are arranged on the phone. and they are returned Federal Express and I never get to meet the client.

Bernie Hughes: I've kept you in mind, but I only do civil. You'd come up testify, if needed?

Norman Perle: Testify is the word I live for!!!

Bob Taylor: Why don't you send out some literature for COIN for use when the need arises.

Norman Perle: I'll mail my Service & Fee Schedule to anyone who wants it. Sorry but the C.V. is about 26 pages....usually goes to an attorney and is for a specific need!!

Nate Lenow: Norm you mentioned to me in a message that you have a new piece of video equipment that eliminates flare, how effective is that in enhancing a video?

Norman Perle: You must have read my mind...Just got a CE-3000. New cost 8K and is also called a real time contrast enhancer. works for specific things. like. bad guy crossed in front of backlit window w/gun and camera detail. this device will equalize the contrast field. Lets you see in what would otherwise be a hotspot.

Nate Lenow: Norm I once remember you telling me to wrap tapes in aluminum foil, but I can't remember why you need to do that?

Norman Perle: Yes..sending tapes through the mail system/Fed Exp/UPS, need to think about protecting them from magnetic fields or even headphones which are magnetized for original or important tapes. I recommend you use a FILM SHIELD POUCH about $12. a lead lined envelope for protecting film from Xrays.

Nate Lenow: Norm can you think of any other tips for PIs in the use of tapes that we may have missed?

Norman Perle: I want to give you this tip. for those COVERT times when the client is wired with a you MUST use an external Mike, it makes. all the difference in the world with the. quality of the recording. you will not. pick up the recorders motor hum... or. the HOLLOW tomato can sound of voices one usually. gets with the recorder in the pocket or under the clothes.

Bob Taylor: Do you recommend an external mike with an amplifier?

Norman Perle: No...not really...the less exotic you get, the less opportunity for MURPHY"S LAW!@!! what do they say. KISS. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID (not you) but the amplification should take place in the duplication process.

Rick Johnson: Norm... do you think that computer technology will eventually make it possible to edit a tape undetected?

Norman Perle: Good ?. I have a case right now where it will be proven that a conversation that was represented to be original, analog tape. was, in fact, created in a computer!

Norman Perle: On further reflection on this. if you have a HIGH END SYSTEM. It is likely that you can fool an expert! It's too involved to go into here, technical etc: if there is an interest any COIN member can call me.

Rick Johnson: How about Video? I saw them change a figure for another on tv and they claimed no one could tell.

Norman Perle: Processes like you refer to are usually for the public to view and do not have to be placed in EVIDENCE! A tape in evidence will be an ORIGINAL. It would take someone who knew the procedures to figure out how to override them.

Norman Perle: I got to say, this is as stressful as COURT...having to be ready and get the answer out soon!!!

Nate Lenow: Don't worry I will do judicious editing here

Rick Johnson: Nate ... Please leave enough time for Norm to tell us about the taped gunshots.

Nate Lenow: bang bang

Norman Perle: Oh, okay, you talked me into it.

Norman Perle: I have a PC based Spectrogram which shows sound in axis's.

Norman Perle: time, amplitude, and FREQUENCIES! It's commonly called a VOICE PRINT...the gunshots will show a specific signature that will be visible with this graphic.

Nate Lenow: Norm, you can actually identify a specific weapon with that test? Or just the caliber?

Norman Perle: Each caliber will have it's own attributes!

Norman Perle: I don't think that. Identification of which GLOCK was fired is possible with audio that is probably a BALLISTIC test. But .22cal/.30cal./20 gauge etc would be a practical manner of detection...the cases I referred to involve WHO FIRED FIRST!

Rick Johnson: When can we do this again, Norm It has been very interesting.

Nate Lenow: Indeed!

Bob Taylor: it's been very interesting, but the Sand Man calls - thanks.

Norman Perle: If anyone has a problem, I am known for bailing out P.I.'s

Bernie Hughes: Great conference, Norm. Thanks

Nate Lenow: OK moderated conference over, the floor is open.

Conference continues but off the record ....

Conference transcript is available to all COIN Members. Should transcript be wanted for publication outside of our section full attribution must be given to COIN for providing it and permission MUST be obtained from Norman Perle. For more information contact either PI Sysop or tonite's speaker at addresses listed in the beginning of the transcript.