La Maison Forte
NORSK SKOGKATT

Continued from: PART 1 of this report: X-Color Discussion

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TYPE AND PROFILE, NFO STANDARD

In the remaining 45 minutes of the meeting, type and profiles were discussed briefly, along with the wording of various standards. It was a bit frustrating not to have more time - but then, it always is.

Various photos had been brought in, to demonstrate people's ideas of good and bad profiles, and Richard Herrmann contributed a batch of drawings he had done at the dinner table Saturday night. These were all passed around the room, but there was really no occasion to talk about them in detail. There was also a series of drawings from a Dutch seminar. They were interesting to look at, but unfortunately there was no time to ask the Dutch breeders exactly what points they were illustrating. Perhaps this can be covered more thoroughly in a future meeting.

Richard Herrmann starts the ball rolling by saying, as many have in their written reports, that the NFO standard is not clear enough

Minna Krogh agrees that the FIFé standard is very open, saying that it was only when she became a judge that she began to realize how much more specific and complete some of the other semi-longhair standards are - especially, for instance, that of the Ragdoll. When the NFO standard was written, it did not have to allow for comparison with /or distance from the Maine Coon, the Siberian, and the Turkish Angora. Still, you can't mistake an NFO for any other breed.

Judith: 'Perhaps the time has come now for us to think about rewriting our standard, rephrasing and defining it better.'

Paula: 'Some people prefer the way the GCCF and CFA standards are written, because they offer so much more detail - although the distribution of points in CFA is overbalanced for the head.' [CFA's standard was giving 50 points for the head at this time].

Sandra Lantairès, absent from the Sunday gathering, had discussed with Paula and Richard the night before her ideas about the correct NFO profile.To begin with, she feels that the profile is not only the nose and forehead, but involves also the chin and the whole side of the head. In one case, someone had expressed a preference for a Siamese-style profile, and Sandra had brought a photo of a Siamese, in order to illustrate why there must be a difference. She said, Paula recounted, that the lines of the two jaws are parallel to one another, forming a narrower angle than is the case with the Norwegian. The Norwegian, being more of a hunter than the Oriental cats, should have more powerful jaws, for catching prey.

Mr. Grytvik, who breeds and judges Siamese, says he doesn't understand what is meant by this matter of the jaw.

Indeed, it is difficult to describe someone else's ideas! Here is Sandra's explanation in her own words, written after the meeting to help us out:

[In reading last year's answers to the questionnaire I was a bit surprised to see that Fabrice Calmès (international FIFé judge from France) feels he is seeing too many NFOs nowadays with a 'Siamese profile'. Having two Siamese neuters at home, I didn't understand this, and so, when I had the opportunity, I asked Mr. Calmès exactly what he meant about the 'Siamese profile'.

Was he talking about 'too long' or 'convex' profiles, or profiles with a break in the nose line (many Siamese have this dip)?

His answer was that it is not a problem of length (he himself breeds Siamese and Orientals) but rather that when you regard the entire head-shape in profile, Siamese have a very narrow head. The lines of the lower jaw are nearly parallel to those of the nose and skull, giving the Siamese a very thin and elegant head.

Concerning the NFO, Mr. Calmès thinks that as it is a bigger cat with a stronger bone structure, the real NFO head (always as seen in profile) must not have these parallel lines, but rather a more triangular shape - with a strong chin, of course, but with a much higher base for the jaws.

In general, my own opinion is the same. I would only add that for me, the best profile line, as we have always spoken of it (upper line only), is the line you do not have to touch in order to be sure it is straight. For me there are two kinds of break, dips and bumps - and both are bad']

For Richard Herrmann, the profile consists only of nose and forehead!

Paula remarks that it is often difficult to be sure we all mean the same thing by the words we use, and cites an e-mail conversation with Kate Campbell in the UK, concerning a new addition to the GCCF Forest Cat standard. Kate and other British breeders are unhappy because the words 'large and elegant' have been added to their standard. Paula looked at that and thought, 'sure, sounds okay'. Later on, asking other breeders, she realized that many people associate the word 'elegant' with a cat that is fine-boned. What does the meeting think?

The meeting says, almost with one voice, 'OHHHH NOOOO! You should NEVER say that an NFO is ELEGANT!' Paula says that for her, elegance has nothing to do with size, but rather with the way a cat (or indeed, a human or any other animal) holds and presents itself. After all, she says, Cary Grant was a big man, but he was certainly elegant. So are Lipizzan stallions. Turning to Aase Nissen, she says that she remembers reading the word 'elegant' on some of Aase's judgements. What does she mean when she uses it? Aase says she doesn't use it very often, but that for her too, elegance is a matter of bearing and allure, and has nothing to do with size and bone structure. A perfect example of why it is good to ask, 'What do you mean by that?'

Jörgen Jensen is then quoted, from his answers to the questionnaire. His description of the ideal NFO profile is brief:'straight/convex'. Paula puzzled over this and couldn't figure out what he meant; if a line is straight, it cannot be convex, or curved, at the same time. This is one of the things that inspired Richard Herrmann to start drawing; he says that perhaps Mr. Jensen means 'straight from the tip of the nose up to here [spot on the forehead], then convex after that.' Hard to put into words! Have a look at Richard's drawings. His favorites are marked #1 and #2. Paula says the third one looks like a sheep.

[The word 'convex' is used in FIFé's description of the Siamese/Oriental head: 'The skull viewed in profile is slightly convex' - but appears nowhere in the NFO standard.]

Another instance of a wording not everyone agrees about occurs in the CFA standard:
'Nose, Profile: Straight from brow ridge to the tip of the nose without a break in the line. The flat forehead continues into a gentle curved skull and neck.'

'Flat forehead' - what do they mean? Is it something like 'the appearance of a flat plane between the ears' described in FIFé's Ragdoll standard? Again, Sandra had brought photos to illustrate her idea: maybe it is not the space between the ears they mean when they speak of the forehead, but the brow ridge, which can make the eyes look too deep-set if it is overhanging.

Katja Schmatz, faxing from Germany, offers the following comment: [It seems to me that in recent months we are hearing new discussion about the NFO profile, especially the forehead. For some breeders and judges, the forehead should be more vaulted, a little bit like the Siamese. For me, Truls should be the base. (he had the correct, straight profile with no vault), and we shouldn't change the standard....]

Margarete Leleithner, writing for the German I.G., says of the profile, 'It's quite easy - in one line, straight from the forehead brow-ridge) to the nose tip. Neither convex nor concave.' She also makes the following point about the FIFé standard: it used to contain a section for 'remarks', missing nowadays, 'in which was stated, for example, that type and coat-quality are of major importance, while colour and pattern are secondary.'

Richard notes that the purity of the profile line may be obscured by the cat's fur; a tuft of hair between the eyes can give the illusion that the profile is not straight. Both Aase and Margarete confirm that the profile should be judged correctly by touch and not solely by looking at it.

Translations of the standards can also be a problem sometimes. Paula refers to the French translation of the NFO standard, which has the following error quoted here from the CCFN report):

FIFé Standard edition 01.01.1995

• Head: Shape - triangular, where all sides are equal; long, straight profile without break in line (no stop)
• Tête: Forme - d'un triangle équilatéral. Longue, avec un profil droit, sans cassure

Note: there is an error in the French translation here. Translated back into English this text has the following meaning: 'Head in the form of an equilateral triangle. Long head with a straight profile, having no break.' Obviously, it is not possible to have an equilateral triangle that is also long. We think this inaccuracy may account for some of the problems we have with French judges who do not breed Forest Cats themselves and seem at times to be unsure of what the true head shape should be.

Correctly, the French translation should read as follows: 'triangle équilatéral, avec un longue profil droit sans cassure'. It is the profile that is long, not the triangle!

The French translation also makes reference, in the section on color, to le patron burmese (Burmese pattern), as one of the colors not permitted. This is not mentioned in the original.

Mr. Grytvik says that the original version is English, and that in case of doubt the English text is the right one.

'Yes,' replies Paula, 'we know that. But most of our breeders in France don't read English, so we need to have the translation corrected.'

Margarete Leleithner says that FIFé is in the process of correcting and revising all the standards and their translations; they may be ready by the next FIFé General Assembly.

Martin Kristensen wonders who will look over the translations for accuracy before they are accepted officially.

Margarete: 'The FIFé Judges/LO Committee handles that.'

At last year's meeting people expressed an interest in having drawings to accompany the standard. Paula asks this year's group what they think of that. Minna Krogh expresses concern that they might be more of a danger than a help, because they might cement the image forever, allowing no flexibility, and discouraging judges from using their own taste. They would have to be very careful not to use the drawings slavishly. Paula wonders who would make the drawings, and which cat they would chose to draw. Would it be a cat we all like?

The Norsk Skogkattring, while reiterating that their ideal profile remains the one depicted in the famous silhouette of their logo, admits that 'the forehead could be higher.' Their written description follows here:

[The profile should be long and straight with a well-built 'high' forehead. The profile line must not be long and flat - this destroys the NFO look and gives the cat a 'tortoise' look.

The length of the nose should be in proportion to the length of the forehead. We have observed some NFOs with very long noses and short foreheads - this destroys the triangular form of the head required by the standard for the NFO and gives the cat a wrong look.

A strong chin - preferably in line with the tip of the nose.]

[Note: We have also been hearing the term 'snake head' recently. Is this the same as what the NSR calls a 'tortoise look'? And Margarete has pointed out that in Germany people are using the description 'Rammskopf" (Ram's Head), usually used with reference to horses, for certain NFOs. Woud this be the same head Paula says 'looks like a sheep'? To be continued.....]

FOREST CAT SIZE AND PROPORTION

Paula asks what other subjects from the questionnaire people would like to mention in the few minutes remaining. Minna Krogh brings up the subject of body type and the importance that our cats be large. But how large is large?

Paula: This has been discussed many times before, especially in connection with the Maine Coon, which has a reputation for being heftier than the Norwegian. But there is nothing in the standard to indicate that our cats should be smaller than Maine Coons; in fact the wording would suggest the contrary.

FIFé Standard edition 01.01.1995

NFO

• Size: large
• Body structure: long, strongly built; solid bone structure

MCO

• Size: medium to large
• Body structure: The body should be long, substantial bone structure.
  Hard muscled, powerful, broad chested. Large framed, all parts of the body in proportion to create a rectangular appearance

Paula brings up a suggestion from the written report of Martine Hovsepian (France), who would like to see more record-keeping done on the size and weight of the NFO.

A similar project was discussed at the first NFO breeders' meeting, in Copenhagen, when Ina R. Svendsen of the Norsk Skogkattring distributed charts for use in recording the development of our kittens. The following is from Paula's personal notes of the 1993 meeting:

['The Norsk Skogkattring is concerned because their females are getting smaller, and are instituting a non-obligatory program to check the weight of kittens from birth to the age of two years. The animal would be weighed at birth, once a week until 10 weeks, then once a month until two years. The information goes to the Norwegian breeding commission, who would like to see males weigh at least six kilos by the age of two years, and the females about four kilos. 'Of course,' says Ms.Svendsen, 'some lines develop more slowly than others, and often the females don't attain full size until about five years.']

Nothing much came of this at the time, at least not on the international level, but there was a feeling of enthusiasm at the present meeting for trying again. Richard Herrmann has offered to take on the project. We will let you know as soon as we get something set up. Martine's list of items that might be included in such a study mentions the following:

• the size and weight of the NFO: some examples of measurements
• the development of kittens: relationship between their weight at birth and as adults
• the role of feeding in the development of muscularity, fat, condition of fur (results as observed in relationship to the type of food given)

Martin Kristensen suggests that a scale be brought along to the seminar in Hörby, Sweden, and that someone weigh all the cats at the show. 'We should get some nice statistics', he says. But he goes on to point out that for him it is not just the weight that matters but the 'feel' of the cat when you pick it up - its density, muscularity, and firmness.

Judith asks what we mean by the 'harmony' of a cat, and says she posed this question once to Karina Bjuran, who gave the following proportions for the NFO body: 5:3 (5 in length to 3 in height). Later she asked Dortemarie Kaplers the same question regarding the Maine Coon, and received the same answer for the MCO body: 5:3. Of course, says Judith, the NFO has longer hind legs than the Maine Coon, and this may throw the measurements off. You cannot think of the Norwegian as a rectangle. She thinks this would be a good subject for discussion at the Hörby meeting.

Richard Herrmann notes that we never seem to see fully-grown NFOs at the shows.

Paula feels it is a shame our standard doesn't mention the fact that the breed develops slowly, as is the case in the Maine Coon standard.'Our NFO standard is for a finished cat, and doesn't really apply to kittens.'

[FIFé standard MCO: 'Very slow maturing of the breed should be taken into account.' The following remark for Maine Coons might also apply to the Forest Cat: 'Females are proportionately smaller than males. Allowance must be made for this significant difference in size.']

Later, in the afternoon, Judith tells of her experiences as judge pupil, and that she has asked about this several times: Well, I see that this kitten has a perfectly triangular head at four months, but it may be too broad when he grows up. On the other hand, THIS kitten is a bit awkward at the moment, but I think he will grow up to be a star. She says she was told over and over that she must always choose the kitten that best meets the demands of the standard TODAY. Of course, one is always allowed to include personal comments about the way the kitten may look in the future, but the point goes to the kitten that most resembles a 'small adult'.

NFO HEALTH

Jarkko Kivisto has written on behalf of the Finnish breed club SMERRY, concerning the problem we have all faced of how open people dare to be when talking about health problems and genetic defects in their catteries. In Finland a suggestion was made

['that there should be a trusted person, preferably a vet, to whom breeders could talk about different sorts of problems, and who would be obliged to keep the names secret, being at the same time in a position to record statistics. This would be a sort of solution for the information gap. Quite frankly, we should have a similar system in the international context, so as not to exaggerate the problems in specific countries just because they were honest and really gave information.']

As time is running out, Paula thanks everyone for coming, and thanks especially the various club correspondents, who have been so much help during the past year. Without them, the Secretariat would not work at all!

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PART 1 OF THE REPORT: X-Color discussion
World Show Reports:
Milan report, NFO standard discussion
Geneva World Show
Lisbon World Show
Arnhem World Show
About those colors
The International Secretary page
Skogkatt Online:NFO links page

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