1: The meeting opened with an introduction of the participants.
Denmark
Jette Eva Madsen, Kjeld Krogh
Finland
sorry, name not found
France
Geneviève Cournud, Sandra Lantairès
Germany
Ulrike Wahl
Italy
sorry, name not foundNetherlands
Judith Zuurveld
Norway
Ina R. Svendsen
Portugal
Pia Gurup
Switzerland
Paula Swepston
United Kingdom
Alan & Sheila Watt (GCCF).2: How many NFO registered in your country in 1992 and in total?
Country Registered in 1992 Registered in total Denmark 445 no figures Finland about 175 about 1000 France 180 including the independent clubs no figures Germany no figures no figures Netherlands about 250 about 1300 Norway about 600 about 6000 Portugal 6 17 Switzerland no figures no figures United Kingdom about 175 about 600 3: Are there any specific problems with Norwegian Forest Cats in your country (type, colour, genetic background, etc.)?
Denmark: No colour problems. Type doing well. Some genetic problems popping up but no severe or traceable genetic faults - but some tail faults, 'frog legs', flat chests, crooked bites, umbilical hernia.
Switzerland: Generally good, but little attention to fur.
Norway: Tail faults in certain lines. Losing canines in certain lines. Stomach problems to some degree. Fur problems, but perhaps this is not genetic but a problem with the judge or breeder who prefers the shorter coat quality. Some cats are never outdoors and this could be the cause of the fur problems.
Netherlands: Due to extreme outcrossing there are only a few genetic problems. Loose kneecaps are seen in one line, but other faults are seen only occasionally.
United Kingdom: No known tail faults. Genetic problems not seen yet. No other problems.
Finland: There could be weight problems causing cats to be too small, and some cats have short coats, but due to lack of communication no records are kept of possible problems.
France: We have no big problems but judges tend to think our cats are too small. We have a few tail faults.
Italy: We don't have many registered breeders and no record of possible problems.
Germany: There is no talk about faults or problems in our country.
Portugal: All 17 cats are very healthy.
Common problems
United Kingdom: People fear criticism of their cats, but it also falls back on the forefathers.
Italy: We are worried about people working with novices.
Most countries cannot register novices. In France, 2 novice cats have been given pedigrees, In Holland, novices can be given pedigrees under strict regulations, i.e. proof that the cat is from Norway, Sweden, or Finland.
Norway:
Females are generally getting smaller. We have started a breeding program to control weight from birth to 2 years. This is on a voluntary basis. The kittens will be weighed at birth and each week until 10 weeks of age. Then every month until 2 years. Males should be at least 6 kilos at 2 years. Females should be 4 kilos at 2 years. But you have to consider that some lines develop slowly up to 5 years of age. Silver cats have the slowest growth.
(This led to a discussion which concluded that this had no genetic explanation based on the fact that these cats carry the silver gene 'I'. These cats must come from slowly developing lines regardless of the colour of the cat. It is normal that females first acquire their full size after their first litter.)
4: General opinion of a possible new NFO standard
Judges may feel insecure if the standard changes too often. Denmark believes it is still premature and not necessary to change the standard right now. If it has to be changed, it should not be changed to meet local demands. It is important that the head not become longer -- our strong cats would disappear. The head must be a triangle where all sides are equal, the chest must be strong. The cat must have the proper fur -- it is not a house cat!
France: Judges who are used to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland can't understand the differences in type and climate [in the more southern countries].
We would prefer a standard that differentiates between cats from 0 to 2 years and one for cats more than 2 years.
This would probably be impossible because it differs from the other breeds in FIFé.
Denmark: It would be a good idea to change the judges' attitudes so that they take more into consideration how age influences the cat, especially the size of the head.
Netherlands: The Dutch proposal about the standard was to make the old standard clearer and more precise rather than to change it. Perhaps some drawings would help clarify the meaning of the standard.
Portugal: A problem with short coats because of the warm weather.
United Kingdom: The association GCCF doesn't automatically get FIFé changes.
Pan's Truls is our hero. We would like to get copies of photos of Truls.France: We now have a brown tabby cat with blue eyes and we wonder where this comes from.
This cat could be a mutation. So far test matings have been impossible due to the owner's' reluctance.
[Update from Paula: This cat, Gingko de Sherezade, caused a furore in France when his photo appeared on the cover of Atout Chat magazine. He belonged to a breeder in one of the independent clubs, and was indeed magnificent to look at. His eyes were bright blue. He was given a hard time at shows because of the eyes, though the owners insisted that since Forest Cat eye color is specified only for whites, this should have no effect on his judgements. In the end they felt so hassled by judges and other breeders that they had Gingko and his parents neutered. Later, I was told by Martine Casteran, editor in chief of Atout Chat that in fact, Gingko's mother was found on the stree 'somewhere in France' -- she was therefore a novice of unknown provenance, probably not a Forest Cat at all. Still, the combination of blue eyes and black tabby coat was strikingly beautiful and it would have been interesting to know where it came from - probably the same genetic phenomenon that produces the 'ojos azules' cats.
(Back down to Paula's notes.)]Switzerland: The discussion about white Norwegian Forest Cats cats seems to be treated differently in Switzerland.
Generally, people seem to have a problem with judges who are not consistent.
To help overcome this problem we should not show the cats that 'confuse' the judges and that we don't 'believe in' ourselves. (This may be unrealistic.)
Italy: We would like to know what is 'enough' (long, high, strong) when we talk about the standard. We all have our own ideas about the standard. Judges should help. Should we make a video?
Norway:The 1993 World Championship handball mascot is an NFO and TV will make a video film.
It is the normal judges' practice to evaluate how good the general quality is of cats in a given country, then try to judge accordingly so that the best cats are rewarded.
5: What do you think of the standard of the other semi-longhair cats: Turkish Van, Turkish Angora, Siberians, Maine Coons, Ragdolls?
MCO: The Maine Coon cats are changing very much at the moment.
TUA: The Turkish Angoras look very similar [to our cats].
SIB: Some Siberian Cats could be taken for NFO's.
The meeting was conducted in a friendly and positive setting. We hope to be able to repeat this kind of gathering, to help us understand one another and prove that we agree much more than we had anticipated beforehand.
I'm adding my own notes here, as I think I covered some points Kjeld did not include. - Paula Swepston ©
Are there any specific problems with Norwegian Forest Cats in your country (type, colour, genetic background, etc.)?
Denmark: Slight increase in umbilical hernia, 'frog legs' (i.e. 'swiming cats'), flat-chestedness, tail faults, and crooked bite. In judging and in her work for the Danish breed commission, Ms Madsen has noticed an increase of these problems. She emphasizes the importance of removing such subjects from the genetic pool, and remarks that although the problems may disappear as a kitten grows up, they will inevitably affect future generations. She makes the point that this happens with all breeds, not only the Forest Cat, and says that although we don't have a big problem yet, we must be very attentive in the future.
Norway: Tail faults in certain lines, some cats losing canine teeth at an early age, some rare stomach problems. The coat is a bit of a concern, as some cats never go out, and of course cannot have the preferred coat quality.
The Norsk Skogkattring is worried because their females are getting smaller, and they are instituting a non-obligatory program to check the weight of kittens from birth to the age of two years. The animal would be weighed at birth, once a week until 10 weeks, and then once a month until 2 years. The information goes to the Norwegian breeding commission who would like to see males weigh at least 6 kilos by the age of two years, and the females about four kilos. They would be interested in receiving weight registers from other countries too; the information (a printed formula was provided) should be sent to Else Nylund.
Of course, says Ms Svendsen, some lines develop more slowly than others, and often the females don't attain full size until they are about five years old. She feels the silver/smokes seem to be the slowest-growing, but Ms Madsen says there is no genetic connection between color and size. This is rather a question of particular line and of the inbreeding necessary to create a beautiful silver coat (as is the case with the Persian chinchillas). She remarks that in fact, an especially large smoke male kitten has been recently imported into Denmark from France.
Netherlands: Because of the Dutch tradition of extreme outcrosses, these defects are not so much in evidence. However, some 'water head' babies have been reported, as well as tail faults and hernias, and loose kneecap in one particular line.
United Kingdom: Not much evidence yet, because the breed is so new in the U.K., but there has been a certain incidence of hernia and tail faults, as well as some 'frog leg' kittens who can't stand up.
France: The most frequent genetic flaw seems to be faulty tails. As for the type, French cats generally have nice heads but are not so big and strong. French breeders are interested in importing new lines and colors in order to improve their stock.
The French delegates informed the meeting that the French Ministry of Agriculture is about to require the various clubs - for all breeds - to combine their pedigree registration books. They are worried that this might lower the standards followed by FIFé. [Update 2002: The mills of the gods grind slowly. This did not come to pass until 2000 - the 'LOOF, Livre d'Origines Officiel Française. And it has been holy hell for the breeders, but things are setting down as time goes by.] In particular they mention blue-eyed Forest Cat named Gingko de Sherezade (see note above). Ms Madsen says the blue-eyed cat might actually be very interesting. It might even be a mutation, in which case we would be lucky. But she has already talked to the owners, who refuse to do test matings. Ms Svendsen comments that blue eyes are not totally unknown even among cats that are not pure white, and cites an animal belonging to Else Nylund, but it is agreed that as that particular cat has so much white, it is a different genetic issue -- more akin to the blue-eyed Turkish Vans.
The French were concerned that, although novice class is not supposed to be permitted for Norwegian Forest Cats, two novices have recently been granted pedigrees by FIFé in France. On questioning, the FIFé authorities had no explanation for the decision. During the ensuing discussion, the Italian representative said that the novice class was allowed in that country for NFO's, and Holland said they are allowed there as well, under strict control and with proof that the cats' origins are Scandinavian.
Italy: The young Italian club is making a good start, with the Forest Cat being named 'number one breed' in Italy this year.
Finland: Cats often too lightweight and coats too short. Biggest difficulty is that breeders don't want to talk about their cats' problems and defects.
Germany: As in Finland, the breeders don't want to admit to any problems!
Portugal: So far, the 17 Forest Cats in Portugal are healthy and well-typed.
Switzerland:Small incidence of genetic faults to date, although in specific lines there have been some kittens born with umbilical hernia, and recently a few animals have shown tail faults. In both cases, the number of examples is small and not alarming.
In general the Swiss Forest Cats conform well to the NFO standard. The fur quality varies from one line to another, as does the size. (Unfortunately, fur quality is seldom taken into consideration by the judges.) At the moment there are several strong stud males with robust bone structure, and it is expected that they will help to improve the sturdiness of future generations.
What is the general opinion in your country on the proposal for a possible new NFO standard (project of the Dutch Forest Cat Club, Noorse Boskattenkring 85)?
Denmark: Denmark doesn't really think a new standard necessary. It's already been changed too often, which is confusing for judges as well as breeders, especially just after the new color classes have been introduced. In addition, it should be remembered that the Eastern European countries and countries like Portugal, where the breed is still young, would be working with the 'new' standard immediately, while the rest of us would be in transition. This could lead to confusion. However, if there is to be a new standard, it is important that it not reflect the 'small interests' of any one country; i.e., traits from particular lines in specific countries should not be favored.
Ms Madsen stresses that the head of the Forest Cat should not be allowed to become longer and longer, because this emphasis would lead to an even longer, slimmer cat with less power; therefore the triangle of the head should remain equilateral. She suggests that something might be added about the neck and chest, and especially about the length of the fur. The phrase 'long, hanging guard hairs' in the original standard has been abandoned in favor of the description 'semi-longhair'. Of course, there are only the genes for short or long hair, but the expression 'semi-longhair' is useful for describing the difference between Persians and Forest Cat coats. Still, it is confusing for many people. In any case it is extremely important not to lose the length and special quality of the Forest Cat's fur.
Switzerland: The Swiss club IGNS report that Swiss breeders are generally in agreement with the new proposals, and refers to their written statement, already sent to Holland. Specific differences of opinion affect mostly the white cats.
France: The French representatives feel that some Scandinavian judges are disappointed in the size of the French cats they see, but think this might be because at home in Scandinavia they are accustomed to older, better-developed subjects. They also wonder if it might be possible to judge according to two standards, one for younger and another for older cats.
Ms Madsen thinks this would be impractical, but adds that a good judge should of course understand the way the breed develops, and take into account the fact that, for instance, the longer face of a young cat will probably become equilateral with maturity.
Netherlands: Ms Zuurveld wants to be sure the other clubs understand that the Dutch have not been asking for a 'new' standard, but that the existing one be more precisely written. She would like to see better descriptions for breeders and judges. How long? how far? how many centimeters? etc. She suggests going more slowly on the proposal now, engaging in dialogue with other countries, perhaps incorporating drawings to clarify certain points.
United Kingdom: 'Eviva Pan's Truls!' Would it be possible for all the clubs to have copies of the photos the Norsk Skogkattring has been exhibiting in the lobby? This way we wouldn't have to rely on written discussion alone, but would have before our eyes the 'original' NFO and a record of his physical development.
[Update 2002: This photo gallery displayed at the Copenhagen show included baby pictures of Pan's Truls and photos of him all during his career. Pictures of other famous foundation cats were featured as well. A project planned here at the Forest Cat meeting to provide each breed club with copies of the pictures never materialized as far as I know. - Paula]
Italy: The Italian representative says that too many people are confusing pets with show cats, and that this goes some way to lowering the quality of Italian show stock. She regrets that many breeders prefer, understandably, to attend smaller shows where they are more likely to receive certificates, than bigger shows where the competition is more demanding. The judges, she feels, should remain very strict in their requirements, even in small town shows, and should do what they can to help educate the breeders. As she points out, it's very difficult for a breeder in Sicily to come north to see the best Forest Cats in their home countries.
Denmark: Ms Madsen replies that, right or wrong, it is 'understood' among FIFé judges that a certain leniency be allowed when judging in an area where a particular breed is not well known. The idea is to give the breeders some encouragement to go ahead. Thus, the Forest Cats in a rural Italian town will probably be less strictly judged than at the World Show in Denmark! She also gives her opinion that confusion and disagreements about the standard in show results are often due to the fact that some judges are inadequately educated about the breed. She encourages exhibitors to seek out judges and speak to them about incorrect judgements, and even, in severe cases, to lodge complaints with FIFé.
Italy: Returning to the subject of the Forest Cat 'look', the Italian representative favors the strong, wild appearance, and hopes the cat will not become long and slim like the Orientals. Again she regrets that distance prohibits her coming north to see fine Forest Cats in person. As she says, it's all very well to read about big ears in a written standard, but how big is 'big enough'? Her idea of a video showing the best-quality cats met with enthusiastic cheers from all sides.
Norway: In fact, Ms Svendsen reports that a video has been planned in connection with the Norwegian Handball Association, for which the Norwegian Forest Cat has been chosen this year's mascot. If all goes well, she will try to see that each NFO club receives a copy. In addition, it seems that Pan's Truls was featured some years ago in a chidren's television series. She wants to find out whether any copies of these films remain, and try to put together some clips for the clubs. These, along with the still collection of Truls would make a fabulous addition to every club archive.!!!
[Update 2002: Not sure what became of the video project, but a couple of years ago the Norsk Skogkattring made a wonderful power point show with a beautiful selection of Forest Cat pictures, and sent copies to all the Forest Cat breed clubs for use at NFC specials, club meetings, and so forth.]
How do you feel about the NFO standard when you compare it to those of other close-lying breeds (TUA, MCO, RAG, Siberians)?
Switzerland: Until recent years, it was often difficult to differentiate between Norwegians and Maine Coons, but now that both breeds boast better-typed examples, it's become much easier.
Denmark: Ms Madsen feels that this question is becoming more important, as the Turkish Angora will soon be recognized in all colors, and as the Siberian will undoubtedly be given FIFé recognition in the near future. As the breeds are similar in many ways, she would like to see the Maine Coon and the Norwegian Forst Cat standards re-evaluated together in a common effort. (Of course this is not likely to happen!) One danger, for example, is that the Maine Coons are beginning to have longer ears and muzzles, traditionally characteristic of the Forest Cat. If this is written into their standard, judges could start looking for shorter ears and rounder faces in the NFO, just to show that there is a difference between the two breeds. This is yet another reason not to be satisfied with inadequate judgements, and to insist on the NFO standard, with photos if necessary. After all, WE WERE THERE FIRST!
As the meeting adjourned, it was generally hoped that this very useful reunion be repeated at next year's World Show in Geneva, Switzerland.
Congratulations to the 1993 World Winner Et eller andet Felis Jubatus,
bred by Jette Eva Madsen and owned by Vibeke and Kjeld Jørgensen.
The photo above is by Kjeld Krogh©.BACK TO:
Reports
The International Secretary page
Skogkatt Online: NFO links page
The Maison Forte site map
Beginning of Paula's notes
Top of the page
Return to NFO home page
